Tom Dahlberg:
Kaardal, by the primacy of politics, you mean that, operationally, politics has its own logic, and that introducing non-political process values (e.g. altruism) will confuse the process and make it less effective. It IS about imposing my will. This is NOT to say that my world view and its cultural preferences will not inevitably determine my political goals. My goal may be a more religious culture, but my political method is not to preach to the political class, but to work through their preferences for an advantage. Even when my goal is to help others, I must impose the goal on others.
But politics is also clearly primary in the sense that politics has to be properly arranged in order to achieve cultural and econonic goals. Above all else Neopopulists must be competent at politics in order to be competent at culture and economics.
Erick Kaardal:
Tom makes a good point here. However, I enthusiastically disagree. My manly Christian political view is "The irresolvable paradox in politics is loving your neighbor while imposing your political will on your neighbor." By proposing this irresolvable paradox as the paradigm for politics, I am already engaged in creating a religious culture. What more manly a politics would Christ require? Come on Tom -- join us in this political adventure, live it, don't overthink it. As Chesterton said, the voice of the people is the voice of God is a heresy we are not in danger of overdoing.
In this context, the primacy of politics simply means that the most important thing a community does is deal with this irresolvable paradox. How does the community go about loving each other while politically imposing their will on each other? Neopopulists prefer democratic, not elitist, means to ensure the best possible results for all the people. Philosophers, economists, psychologists and even theologians have much to offer -- but they don't do politics. They don't try to address the irresolvable paradox because they don't have to; they're not polticians.
Thus, the primacy of politics means to neopopulists that philosophical, economic, psychological and even theological talk is very helpful in some ways -- but not for politics. Politics is not a marketplace of ideas. It is a gymnasium for charity.
Tom Dahlberg:
I believe I was agreeing with the primacy theory. But now I'm not so sure.
I see that the political process has its own nature and that you can't fight nature. I embrace Erick's exhortation not to fight nature. Politics is for the natural man and is required by the fallen nature of the world. We should not idealize the struggle for power. But there is a profound difference between idealizing the struggle for power and demanding that politics serve values outside of itself (instead of just realizing a manly will to power). Erick sees Neopopulism as authenticating politics, much as Machiavelli was authenticating politics. But it is not politically inauthentic per se to recognize that politics needs to import its goals from religion. Politics is just a process.
I cannot even imagine politics existing in a vacuum. The goals of political activity are assigned to it by culture, economics, philosophy and religion. Re: The Declaration of Independence which argues that independence is valuable from a religious perspective at least to those who are declaring it. The revolution is not fought simply to impose my will. I impose my will because I have a super-political and paradoxical goal: more democracy. I am transferring the irresolvable paradox to: I seek power to limit power. That is I love my neighbor while imposing freedom (which is my will informed by religious values) on him. And it IS an imposition. I repeat: My WILL inFORMED by religious values. All of politics is either inFORMED or misinFORMED by religious faith and values, secular (scientism) and non-secular. It has to be FORMED.
Surely it is impossible to be a neopopulist and believe that politics (the acquisition and use of power) is an end in itself. That is liberalism and Conservatism as expressions of the ideological will to power. If neopopulism, I'm sure we agree, is just a will to power, then it becomes elitist.
Politics is a manly art, not a manly goal. All the truly manly GOALS as such are outside of politics. But, Erick may reply, that's according to religion. That's right. We cannot even agree about what's manly and what isn't, what's political and what isn't, without a world view.
Once again, this is why democracy (the least manly approach to power) is so important. It's the perfect fit for a post modern age where the expert is clearly more manly than the politician. After all, the expert won't compromise.
Erick Kaardal:
Obviously, Tom doesn't agree with the primacy of politics. Let's look at what Tom said. Tom's remarks are in quotes and underlined:
"We should not idealize the struggle for power."
Erick's response, "If you are in politics, you should. Winning is everything."
"But there is a profound difference between idealizing the struggle for power and demanding that politics serve values outside of itself (instead of just realizing a manly will to power)."
Erick's response, "I disagree because the basic communal value is loving y0ur neighbor, the people. How does the politician act, use power, to love the people? Politicians are not engaged in some intellectual exercise to serve values outside of themselves. I find offensive Tom's suggestion that politics serve values outside of itself. People serve people. Ideas don't serve ideas. "
Erick sees Neopopulism as authenticating politics, much as Machiavelli was authenticating politics. But it is not politically inauthentic per se to recognize that politics needs to import its goals from religion. Politics is just a process.
Erick's response, "Wrong. Neopopulism authenticates politicians who love and serve the people-- not politics. If the politicians are serving (loving) the people, they are doing their job. The only way to ensure the politicians are doing their job is for the people, per Machiavelli, to be loved and feared by the politicians. If given a choice, the people should prefer fear by, over love by, the politician because it is more likely to motivate them to do their job.
Tom states that 'it is not politically inauthentic per se to recognize that politics needs to import its goals from religion.' I don't disagree but religion is not relevant to the political questions at hand -- are the bureaucrats serving the people? Think space shuttles exploding, bridges collapsing and lions jumping out of zoo cages. We don't need religion to know when a bureaucracy is mediocre and not worth doing. We simply need an axe of mercy, excuse me, act of mercy to terminate the mediocre bureaucracy."
I cannot even imagine politics existing in a vacuum.
Erick's response, "Politics operates in an intellecutal vacuum. That's why academics are bored by local, practical politics. Academics have to create weird theories like rational choice politics to make politics interesting to them. Politics is always interesting to the neopopulist. Politics is a gymnasium for acts of charity. It's not a marketplace of ideas or marketplace of theologies as Tom suggests. Interestingly, the neopopulist approach puts what the politician says and does under immediate public scrutiny -- is he serving the people or not?
Tom's approach to politics seems to suggest an associational politics relating to common world views. For my part, understanding one world is complicated enough; trying to understand different world views is a task I do not have time in this short lifetime to undertake."
The goals of political activity are assigned to it by culture, economics, philosophy and religion.
Erick's response, "No, the politician is responsible for his political activity. The people hold the politician accountable by his actions."
The Declaration of Independence which argues that independence is valuable from a religious perspective at least to those who are declaring it.
Erick's response, "Yes. I agree."
The revolution is not fought simply to impose my will. I impose my will because I have a super-political and paradoxical goal: more democracy.
Erick's response, "More democracy doesn't make sense unless it is to serve the people. More democracy is a response, not an answer, to the irresolvable paradox. I believe 2,000 years of Western history support me on this point."
I am transferring the irresolvable paradox to: I seek power to limit power. That is I love my neighbor while imposing freedom (which is my will informed by religious values) on him. And it IS an imposition. I repeat: My WILL inFORMED by religious values. All of politics is either inFORMED or misinFORMED by religious faith and values, secular (scientism) and non-secular. It has to be FORMED.
Erick's response, "I think this is a mistake. Seeking power to limit power sounds like you don't trust or love the people. No political methodology should rest on that approach. Further, it's not practical. When you were Mayor of Shorewood, your platform wasn't seek power to limit power. Your platform was to use power to serve the people. Often, of course, that meant not to use available power because it would have violated or disrespected the dignity of the people. The reason why "Seek Power to Limit Power" is not a persuasive political slogan is that people won't believe it. They demand certain services from government. If they don't get them, they will demand them and eventually get them. The Neopopulist slogan of "Democracy" in light of the irresolvable paradox is salable to the people because they know if they don't run the government -- the experts will.
As to religious values, I still don't see how it is relevant to the battle against the modern regulatory state. The people already have sufficient religious values. The question is do they have the will? That is what neopopulism addresses. It is not a religious movement. It is a political movement trying to accomplish concrete goals."
Surely it is impossible to be a neopopulist and believe that politics (the acquisition and use of power) is an end in itself. That is liberalism and Conservatism as expressions of the ideological will to power. If neopopulism, I'm sure we agree, is just a will to power, then it becomes elitist.
Erick's response, "One end of neopopulism is already defined: a "skilled" democracy with a balance between democratic and bureaucratic inputs. That is a battle against government elitism and expertism in favor of practical, common sense-based and good results. Think space shuttles exploding, bridges collapsing and lions jumping out of zoo cages. To equate neopopulism with ideological reductionism is to miss the point. Neopopulism find interesting every aspect of government service and want to make it better. Ideologues are promoting an ideology. Neopopulists are promoting the people's interests in government. There is a huge difference in how ideologues and neopopulists define the public interst. I don't know how neopopulism could ever be defined as a will to power because of its recognition of the irresolvable paradox: loving the people is a limitation on the use of power. Every government use of power against someone should be consistent with an act of mercy or charity."
Politics is a manly art, not a manly goal.
Erick's response, "I think a frontal assault on the modern regulatory state is manly. Now, it may look at times like swinging at windmills like Don Quixote did -- but there is something there chivalric nonetheless. Otherwise, I don't quite know what this statement means. To the extent the statement intends to subordinate politics to intellectual goals, I disagree for the reasons given above."
All the truly manly GOALS as such are outside of politics. But, Erick may reply, that's according to religion.
Erick's response, "Why isn't the political goal of reigning in the regulatory experts by practicality, common sense and logic manly? The bureaucrats have so many advantages. Are practicality, common sense and logic religious or non-religious exercises? I believe they are non-religious exercises. So, the goals of neopopulists are manly and are within politics. Yes, Tom is correct. I assign his view of politics to religion. If politics is subordinate to religion, then Tom does not believe in the primacy of politics. Case solved."